127: Traci Fenton
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Joe Krebs speaks with Traci Fenton about Freedom at Work and a democratic workplace. She talks about the impact of fear on performance and moral. In 2022 Traci released her new book "Freedom at Work" that compliments the democratic workplace certification program which she founded in 1997 as WorldBlu.com.
Transcript:
Joe Krebs 0:10
Agile FM radio for the Agile community, www.agile.fm. Welcome to another episode of Agile FM. Today I have a guest with me that is going to talk about democracy at the workplace freedom at work. It's the founder of world blu. It's Traci Fenton, and welcome to the podcast
Traci Fenton 0:37
great to be with you, Joe. Thanks for having me.
Joe Krebs 0:40
Well, first and foremost, congratulations to a new book release that was released in spring 2022. That is freedom at work. And the subtitle is very interesting, the leadership strategy that transforms your life, your organization, and our world. These are some big big words, we're going very granular, the life we're going a little bit bigger the organization and then we go really, really big. The world?
Traci Fenton 1:05
Absolutely. Well, when you're talking about a topic like freedom, and organizational democracy, it's really hard to think small with those topics, you have to think big. And freedom, of course, starts at such an individual level, as leaders can ripple out to our teams and organizations, and absolutely makes a powerful impact on our world.
Joe Krebs 1:25
Absolutely. And these are the topics we want to talk a little bit about, I read the book, it's an awesome book, there are some really thought provoking things. In the book, the word agile pops up a few times, but it's not an agile book, per se. It's about freedom at work, democratic workplaces. And we want to explore the sections, the parts, a little bit of the book, because there are three parts to this book. It's the mindset, it's the leadership, and it's the design or the four parts, but those three are really going into the, into the depth and the meat of it. When did you start thinking about creating an organization like world blu, which is by the way, not with an E at the end? So it's just worldblu.com? When did you think or started thinking about creating a company? Or what was the trigger for that?
Traci Fenton 2:14
Oh, absolutely. Well, I actually founded world blue back in 1997. So then at this work for over 25 years now. And it started for me, my senior year of college, I was asked by our student, our president of our college, if I would run our Student Affairs conference, and it was a big honor at my small liberal arts school. And I said, Sure, and I got my student team together, and I said, Alright, gang, let's come up with a topic for this public affairs conference. That's a consciousness raising outside the box forward thinking, they went off and did a bunch of research, everybody came back did a big presentation to me, drumroll and said, Traci, we think the topic should be democracy, to which my 21 year old mind said, democracy is voting and old white guys in politics in Washington, DC. That was my concept of democracy. And as I talked with them about it more and more and more, my thinking had to really expand. And I realized, and also what my team was telling me is, democracy is actually a style of leadership. It's a style of governance, and it's a style of government. But what I'm always been committed to in my life, was helping people realize their fullest potential. And you can only realize your full potential in an environment of freedom, rather than an environment of fear and control. And so my intuition, Joe, I didn't know where this is going to take me. But my intuition at the time was absolutely, let's do the conference on democracy, let's look at how a democratic style of leadership rather than, you know, it's the other end of the continuum, a more authoritarian or dictatorial style of leadership, we want to contrast those two, how that can be applied in really any industry, any area of life, any sector of society, from business, to education, to urban planning, to, of course, government politics. And that's what got me excited, that's what got me started, ended up starting World Blu, and we've now worked with companies all over the world in over 100 countries. We've worked with top brands like Zappos Group, Hulu, Pandora, DaVita, WD40. And we've helped so many of these companies transition from that command and control style of leadership to a much more democratic style of leadership that gives power to the people to produce amazing results
Joe Krebs 4:46
Let's talk a little bit before we go into the program itself right so the there's there's a program at World Blu where companies could just go and just go but could go and and get self or get assessed against those democratic principles. But there's also like the topic of freedom at work that you're describing in the book. Right? So that's not the book. That's what the handbook for the assessment that is more like to talk a little bit about freedom. Now, you just mentioned that F word in, in your previous segment. Yeah. And that's about fear. Why is fear so harmful? I mean, that was an eye opening thing when I was reading, and I would like to hear the listeners to hear what you think about how does fear on an individual level impact, let's say performance, etc? That is just absolutely mind blowing?
Traci Fenton 5:34
Yeah, it really is. And that that was a big revelation for me to Joe and doing all this is the contrast of freedom versus fear. Because as I was doing this work, I'm like, what is it that keeps stopping us really from being free? I mean, I mentioned in a moment ago, organizational democracy, we'll get into that that's a framework for freedom. But what is it at the core that slows us down, and it's fear. I mean, if you look at almost any problem we have in life or in our workplaces, whether it's stress, anxiety, all the isms, you know, that are going on in the workplace hierarchy, all you know, unnecessary hierarchy, bureaucracy, right. All of this at the core of it is actually fear. And the brain research tells us that the average person thinks 60,000 thoughts a day 95% of those thoughts are the exact same thoughts we had the day before. And a whopping 80% of those thoughts are actually negative and fear based. So when we are in a fear based mindset, that causes us to make bad short sighted reactionary decisions, it causes us to just be, you know, mean, angry, upset, people are engaged in other behaviors then that are, you know, destructive or toxic. And so often leaders in our workplaces, we are making decisions from fear, especially right now. I mean, everyone's in so much fear of what's going on with inflation, right? You know, you work all over the world. So I'm working with CEOs hearing from all angles, what's happening, and I keep encouraging them. All right, and I give, I give a five step method in the book for how to shift your mindset, literally in a minute, from fear to freedom and possibility. And when you do that, it lifts us out of the fog, it helps us see the full range of what's possible, so that we can make better business decisions that impact the bottom line. And that help continues to engage people.
Joe Krebs 7:28
Right. Do you see any connection? I know, you mentioned in 2008/2009, during the financial crisis, right? You mentioned some behavioral changes. And that led to some some negative impact on the workplace and in companies. And I just mentioned 2022, we're facing a situation of inflation and uncertainty. Do you see already any kind of early indicators of a similar pattern that's going on in the world out there?
Traci Fenton 7:54
There's absolutely. Now, I'm no economist. But obviously, I can speak from the angle of what I'm hearing with our clients around the world is, even those who, you know, I was just talking, let me give you an example. I just talked two days ago with a CEO of a world blu certified Freedom Center company. We've worked with them for 10 years, we've helped them implement democratic systems and processes. This CEO absolutely understands how to lead with freedom rather than the fear. But in the course of our conversation, he was telling me that he's like, I have to lay people off, they just got bought, they're trying to figure out how to save a few million dollars. He says, I have to lay people off. And I said, Wait a second, you know, how to handle this in a more democratic way. And let me give you an example. Joe, and I talk about this in the book, right? During these times, the the first thing we often go to is just let lay people off, let people go. You know, we talk about Richard and our mutual friend and Menlo innovations, and I tell the story in the book of Menlo innovations, and what they did during the last great recession in 2008, when they were also faced with, you know, gosh, a contracting client base and contracting revenue. And so what Rich and the team had in place because they are a worldly certified freedoms that our company they operate democratically if they have a shared pain, shared reward system. So what Rich did was very transparently, they all sat down and said, Here's where we are financially. Here's where we here's what we have to do. How can we handle this? And some people said, You know what, I'm cool. I was thinking about retiring anyway, I can retire now. So they rolled off. Other people said, well, I could actually handle going part time. So I'm gonna go part time. Other people said, Nope, I've got to work. So they were able to flex people around. It wasn't perfect. And I share this in the book. They did have to let a couple people go, but what they did Joe was a did that and in treating everyone fairly and with dignity and they were transparent about that process. They give power to everyone Power to the people to help solve that decision. So that When things ramped up, you know, after they were through that recessionary time, their reputation was intact, morale stayed attacked, engagement came in stayed intact, and people who had left were able to come back and they were able to hit the ground running, you know, that's this approach that we're talking about is, is Power to the people giving power to the people, keeping them informed, treating them, like adults, so they can make decisions together to have extraordinary outcomes.
Joe Krebs 10:26
I mean, this is a leadership thing, right? So and this is part of the focus a leadership thing is for us is to realize that this is the culture the executive team would be portraying. Now, you know, playing devil's advocate, the first approach of just laying off people would be the easier approach, right? It would be something that's like, very easy, I can write a press release, it's going out today, I'm laying off people 20%, or whatever that is, but easy decision. But you're absolutely right, we might be laying off somebody who would be, you know, is very connected, obviously, financially to a job. And we would be keeping somebody who might actually be going up, you know, voluntarily. So it's not the optimal situation. So self organization, right self management, styles that are being portrayed a leadership, super important.
Traci Fenton 11:15
Absolutely, very important. Again, I use the terminology, self governance in the book, but it is definitely parlays everything I'm talking about here with, you know, self management and allowing people to be adults. And let me give you another example I talked about in the book. It's a large company called HCL technology, again, during the Great Recession, you know, because people say, oh, you know, democracy, but can this work in big companies? Absolutely. What Vinita and I are did at HCL Technologies, 120,000 employees, across multiple geographies. He came forward, he decided, again, transparency, openness, Power to the People, let's let them self govern, self manage. And he said, Look, we have to find a way to save $100 million, or we have to let people go during this recessionary time $100 million, or we have to let people go, what do you think we should do? Okay, like, wow, this is rocket science to actually ask people. Do you have any ideas? So he he went out and said, What do you think we should do? What ideas do you have, they were flooded with ideas back to their internal system, they had several under 100 ideas come in, they acted on 76 of those idea 76 of the ideas that the CEO and his team vetted, they said, we can make these work, they put them into operation, not only did they say they didn't just save $100 million, they saved $216 million, and no one was laid off. And they compare it to what was happening with our competitors, you know, their competitors were just took that short term slash and burn mentality, lay people off, got a negative reputation, you know, unfortunately, destroyed lives, hurt, hurt people's lives and livelihoods of their families, because there's a ripple effect from that. And then it's very hard to hire back and expand. And Dell was able to just keep going and had a huge ended up having I don't remember off top my head, the number but very large profits despite that recession.
Joe Krebs 13:09
That's an interesting point about the profits. And I want to just go in there here for a second, because I think that's also important. So I'm teaching some courses around agile org design, right? And how agile organizations are structuring themselves in a way that they are responsive in terms of business agility, etc. Many, many of those topics are related to what you're talking about in your book, right? So there's a clear connect between these things. Now, sometimes I show very, very, you know, thought provoking videos out there, you know, about tomato producers, tomato product producers. Morningstar, for example. And, and sometimes I get reactions from people, that would never work in my organization. Right. And there is an organization is actually evidence is a company that does that. And there is evidence of that it's working right. And, and people are still saying this, I just can't see this working in my organization or anywhere else. How do you respond to that this is actually working. And we have some evidence because you have some companies that are certified?
Traci Fenton 14:18
Well, absolutely, it works. I mean, we've been doing this for 25 years, my book I picked out 50 Of the hundreds of companies that we've worked with that are have gone through our rigorous certification process, and we've helped them transform. So we've worked with companies as small as five employees up to 120,000 employees, literally in 100 countries in almost every industry. So anyone who says this isn't gonna work in my company, it's only a crisis of creativity. They're just making excuses because a democratic style of leadership can work anywhere. Now, with that said, Joe, sometimes it won't work, and it won't work because it does come down to your leaders. So when someone says it won't work, it doesn't matter your industry, it doesn't matter, any of that doesn't matter what you do. I mean, GE Aviation makes jet engines, I mean, they're, you would think this has to be a command and control organization. They're in the book, they got world blu certified, phenomenal democratic model, I certainly am familiar with Morningstar, and many of the principles of agile correspond to the 10 principles of democracy I talked about in the book. But the time when it doesn't work, and this was a revelation to me, Joe, is, I'll tell you the story, we were working with a large, very large manufacturing company in the Midwest. And we were working mostly with their executive team, the CEO, who had inherited the business from his grandfather, father, now pass to him. He didn't, excuse me stop what we were doing, you know, he wasn't stopping his executive team, but he wasn't really engaged. So we were working with his executive team, helping to democratize the leadership style of this large manufacturing company. And eventually, the CEO got on board, he came to one of our trainings, I tell the story in the book. And one of the big revelations he had was how much his sense of low self worth we talk about his sense of, of insecurity as an individual was actually stopping him from giving more power to his people. Because, right, if you're insecure, and who you are, we talk in the book about and I teach this at world blu, low self worth, if you're not sure, and who you are, you don't want to give power to your people like your that's threatening to you, right? So this CEO had to have this revelation of like, wait a second, it's because I'm struggling with my sense of self worth, that I'm actually not fully embracing this. And, and he committed to working through that. We were there to help him. But once he got back, he really, he wasn't really interested in being coached and becoming better, and ended up just selling the company, the leaders he worked with were heartbroken. So it's not going to work Joe if the CEO is super insecure, isn't willing to take feedback, well, isn't willing to really work to give power to his or her people, then it won't work. But if the leader who says yes, it can, you know, I do believe in unleashing the full potential my people, because I realized that impact to the bottom line, to morale to engagement to agility I'm in, it can work anywhere,
Joe Krebs 17:29
right? It can work anywhere. It works for companies, or five employees, or more,
Traci Fenton 17:37
five or more, absolutely.
Joe Krebs 17:39
So this is actually a very small group of people. And obviously, a lot of companies out there that would fulfill that requirement with five employees or more. Now, if somebody is listening to this right now and says like, I have six people, I have five people, and I'm interested in this. And I would like to see how something like that is structured. What does that entail in terms of you know, how much involvement of world blu would be in a company of five? And, you know, what, with the daily life change in terms of, you know, interacting with you in terms of profitability in terms of, you know, time spent on designing a program like this, you have any kind of data or run very small companiesthat work with it
Traci Fenton 18:20
Oh, absolutely. It's really not that hard to make the transition. And we've found the way I've got so much experience with this. So the steps would be grabbed my book, read freedom at work, see, see if you feel it, you know, if you feel it, if you agree with it, if you find yourself nodding, you know, I've had so many people tell me, oh my gosh, like I'm dog earing every page I'm highlighting, you know, just received phenomenal feedback on the book, I think it's five stars on Amazon, you know, pick up the book. But at World blu, we have 150 courses that we guide, they don't have to do all 150 Joe, but at different pathways we move them through, that produces phenomenal results. You know, we were working with a company in California had 11 employees. Within three months of working with us, they'd already saved half a million dollars. The husband and wife who were who are co owners of the company, and we're basically on the verge of divorce are now like, oh my gosh, because we've taught them how to implement these democratic systems and processes. They're like we've fallen back in love. I've never been happier. The CEO just told me earlier this week, he's like, I will never go back to a hierarchical organization. Traci, everything you told us has come true. Like Yep, so there's ways to do this. We've got a whole course called freedom at work that complements the book. And then we've got all of our leadership training and of course, our culture design training based on those three pillars of freedom at work I talked about in the book, mindset leadership and design. And I'll also add Joe that one thing that's so great, this this is not Kumbaya, like this is solid business strategy. We had third party research done on companies that practice the freedom at work leadership model that we teach you And they found that on average companies that take this more freedom centered democratic approach, approach 700%, greater revenue growth, compared to the s&p 500 over a three year period. So anyone who's serious about major revenue growth, releasing the potential there people, you know, engaging people through hard times, this works, it works, and we've figured out how to do it,
Joe Krebs 20:24
especially for so many knowledge workers out there. Creativity and innovation is needed democratic works. It's definitely something that can can help, obviously, something I would say get the book, I was super impressed. As I said, there is the reference to Agile here and there, throughout the book, but it's not necessarily an agile book, right? But it's a book about freedom at work. That's really what the title of the book is, right? But I think everybody who is in Agile teams, and agile organizations can make that link and see what the benefits are from what you're working on and what you're passionate since 1997, to implement certain things, even if it should you go through the entire assessment. That's a different story. Right. But it's there, it's at your fingertips to, to try it. So that's that was my goal today to speak a little bit and expose your ideas. So the Agile community.
Joe Krebs 20:24
Oh, thank you so much. So you know, the whole idea of agile, which I absolutely love, it's so complimentary, with what we teach our world blu. It's why we've had so many great companies that we've worked with, all over the world, practice agile, and then they come to us and they say, Help us round it out a little bit more, help us get even more of those systems and processes in place. Help us teach our team help us teach our people how to lead this way. And that's where it's so complimentary. I absolutely love the Agile community I love working with companies are interested in Agile, and it's just an honor privilege to be on your show and speak with your amazing audience.
Joe Krebs 21:57
Awesome. Traci. I think one of your stories was that when you correct me if I'm wrong here. I don't know the exact details. But you're connected somehow to one of the founding fathers of the United States?
Traci Fenton 22:09
Oh, yes, yes, yes. Well, not the founding father. But um, yes, I do talk in the book that one of my relatives, I only learned this in the last two years because my aunt started doing genealogy work. But I'm Ruben Eaton Fenton was one of the founders, with Abraham Lincoln of the Republican Party, which was started to, you know, nowadays, you never know where people are politically. But obviously, the Republican Party was founded to help end slavery. And it was founded with Abraham Lincoln. And so I think it's, it's kind of fun, because I only found out about that recently. And I ended up going online and ordering a bunch of his speeches, and found this phenomenal speech he gave on the floor of Congress, because he ended up becoming a congressman and senator and then the governor, Governor of New York and the congressman and senator from New York, and gave us phenomenal speech on ending human slavery on the floor of Congress, and I actually have a little excerpt from it in the book, and the speech ends with the words freedom now freedom forever, and actually end my book with those words, freedom now, Freedom forever, so it's kind of a fun little wink. To history, and you know, it's now
Joe Krebs 23:22
well, maybe that maybe that indirectly drove you for, like, maybe, maybe there is maybe there is a connect, and probably a very interesting piece to be aware of. And to know, right, it's,
Traci Fenton 23:35
it was very interesting. So I've lived in Washington twice now. And so it's really fun to feel like oh my gosh, you know, not that many generations ago. And when I looked at this guy's picture on Wikipedia, he looks exactly like my grandpa, my dad this whole facial structure. So it's a fun little thing. You caught that! Put that little bit of luck, just as a fun little. Yeah.
Joe Krebs 23:59
Thank you so much. What a great end to the to our podcast. And as I said, we're blu. It's not written with an E at the end for everybody googling worldblu.com Traci Fenton, freedom at work. Thank you so much.
Traci Fenton 24:12
Thanks for having me, Joe. It was a joy.
Joe Krebs 24:15
Thank you for listening to www.Agile.FM, the radio for the Agile community. I'm your host Joe Krebs. If you're interested in more programming and additional podcasts, please go to www agile.fm. Talk to you soon.
